Blind skateboarder Dan Mancina talks about how he gained confidence as a skater, his career as a pro skate team and the normal everyday struggles that make him no different than anyone else.
Will Butler:
This week on the Be My Eyes podcast, blind skateboarder, Dan Mancina talks about adjusting to blindness and coming into his own as a real pro skateboarder. Meeting Tony Hawk, traveling the world, amassing a social media following and just being a more or less regular guy. I chat with Dan about all sorts of things related to skateboarding and beyond. But first, we're giving you a chance to win a super exciting prize. That is the new smart glasses from Envision AI. This is an opportunity that we're offering to only our Be My Eyes podcast listeners. You're only going to hear about it through the Be My Eyes podcast. And all you've got to do is go to bemyeyes.com/envision. That's E-N-V-I-S-I-O-N, fill out the form and you're entered to win.
Will Butler:
You might know Envision from their app, which reads text, documents, photos, and other things. But now they're bringing the power of image recognition into smart glasses. So you are entering to win a pair of Google Glasses equipped with the Envision AI platform. Just go to bemyeyes.com/envision, and we will be drawing a winner at the end of the month. And now here's our interview with blind skateboarder Dan Mancina. I caught up with Dan last summer and I asked him if he remembered the first time we had met, which I joked was when he was a little bit mad at me.
Will Butler:
Do you remember why?
Dan Mancina:
I have an inkling but, I don't want to say the wrong thing. You go.
Will Butler:
Well, from my recollection, you were the first ever applicant for the [inaudible 00:01:47] prize.
Dan Mancina:
Wow.
Will Butler:
Which is the prize that we started at Lighthouse back in 2016, which is a $25,000 prize. Yeah, still going. We've had four groups of winners now. I'm not there anymore, but it's still going. And when we opened up applications that January of, it was either 2016 or 2017, I'm blanking. I think maybe 2017. We had no idea if anyone was going to apply. And we were just like, "All right, here it goes."
Dan Mancina:
We just need one.
Will Butler:
And your application was the first one to come in.
Dan Mancina:
Really? Wow.
Will Butler:
And we were just like, "Okay, this is going to work."
Dan Mancina:
It's going to be sweet, yeah.
Will Butler:
This is going to be sweet. But then, you didn't win.
Dan Mancina:
Didn't win. There's a lot of cool people out there, man, with some probably better writing skills than me.
Will Butler:
And then I had to convince you that it wasn't me who made the decision. I'm still climbing my way back from-
Dan Mancina:
No hard feelings, man. That really helped to push me in other ways, in other areas and avenues and recognition from other sources and stuff like that. So it's all a win-win benefit for everybody, the whole blind community and myself, everybody. Yeah. It was good.
Will Butler:
I'm glad to hear it because you know how things go. It's like we met at Lighthouse some months later and we joked around about the home and thing. And then you told me what you were working on and then you slipped off my radar. And then when you pop back up on my radar, you're like a celebrity.
Dan Mancina:
Almost celebrity.
Will Butler:
You got hundreds of thousands of followers and you're getting write-ups and all this. It's been quite a, I mean, I will go through all of it, but it's been quite a ride the last couple of years, huh?
Dan Mancina:
It has, man. My life has definitely completely changed from what it was when I was applying for that home prize to now is a complete 180, and all positive. I'm sure we'll get into it, but as far as skateboarding, for those who don't know me, I'm visually impaired, I'm fully blind now. I've been skateboarding since I was a little kid. I stopped for a while in my mid 20s when my sight started to really decrease a lot and just lost, trying to figure out who I was and stuff like that. And eventually, got back into skateboarding and found it again and realized that this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
Dan Mancina:
And fast forward to now where I'm able to make a living off skating and travel and be a part of these amazing skateboard teams that I grew up admiring and loving like, Real Spitfire Thunder, Adidas, these just-
Will Butler:
It's so incredible.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. These teams that I just idolized. And I get to meet all these people and it's just been unreal, a dream come true and just makes me even more motivated to chase, even bigger dreams and stuff like that. So...
Will Butler:
That's real inclusion, right? You're getting corporate sponsorship from places like Adidas and Real and they believe in you on the same level. It's not the exact same, but on the same level where they believe in other skaters, right?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. The same level, man. That's the greatest feeling is getting that, put in the same category. I don't personally feel like I'm in the same category, at the same level. I skate with these guys and I'm just blown away. Like, "Man, I do not deserve to be here. I suck." But it feels good, man. It's amazing. And hopefully it opens doors to other skaters and there's other people that have been popping up: Justin Bishop, a buddy of mine, another vision impaired skater. Getting recognition and love from companies, and hopefully it just keeps growing and expanding. So that's just another crazy thing that was unexpected to watch the community grow and to be a part of that is like, it's so cool. Yeah.
Will Butler:
Yeah. The other thing I love about the way you approach all of this is you're pretty on-message about the fact that your job is not so much to motivate blind and vision impaired people to strive as much as it is to change the perceptions that people have about us. You're just like blind skateboarder... Your Instagram says, "Blind skateboarder, changing the way people see." Right? I love that. Like putting it on them.
Dan Mancina:
Exactly. Really where my struggle with my blindness comes from is, noticing the difference in the way people treated me. Going from sighted to the blind world that's the hardest thing to deal with. Getting the same people I grew up with treating me in a different way is just crazy. Really makes you question yourself and your own abilities and stuff like that. Even really, kind of subconsciously in many ways. Until I really thought about it, like, "Man, I'm starting to, in some ways, buy into these misperceptions that people have for the blind and asking for more help than I need." Stuff like that. You just start to slowly believe it and buy into it. And that's the most harmful thing for a visually impaired person is to do that.
Will Butler:
How do you check yourself when you're sliding into that?
Dan Mancina:
I got to it every day, man, and I don't. I should do it every day is what I should say. Just really stepping out of my comfort zone is a big way, doing something new, just traveling somewhere by myself as much as I can is really helpful to let me know like, "Okay, you can do this." I may be nervous to go travel but when it's all said and done. It's like, "Okay. You can do it. You're all right. You're still here. You made it through."
Will Butler:
It's empowering.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. Empowering. Exactly. But, yeah. I mean, geez, I have a longtime girlfriend, Heather, and she was here a bit too much for sure. No doubt there.
Will Butler:
Well, you were talking on one of the other podcasts about the tension between inclusion and independence, right? And sometimes those two things are a little bit at odds with each other.
Dan Mancina:
They are. I was curious away because there is a whole community of blind people who are very strict in their independence.
Will Butler:
There is. Yeah.
Dan Mancina:
I wondered what their thoughts were about an app like Be My Eyes. Do they consider this? You hear stories about how people don't even want braille on US denominations and stuff like that, currency because they feel that's not a truly independent thing. So I wonder if that same kind of mindset of vision impaired people, how they felt about Be My Eyes or if you even have any experience with that.
Will Butler:
Definitely. We've worked really hard at having strong partnerships with all the major thought leaders in blindness. So we currently have both ACB and the NFB and represented on the specialized help section of the app, which is really cool to have the different perspectives represented. And in general, I think how much you use Be My Eyes is an individual thing. The other thing, well, I won't get on my soap box about it, but it's like the reason we're hesitant to ask for help is because there's always strings attached. It's someone in your life who is going to think of you differently because you asked for help with that certain thing. And the thing that is beautiful about Be My Eyes is you're never asking the same person for help. It is literally anonymous help with no strings attached. Whereas a lot of people think, "Oh, the more I use Be My Eyes, the less independent I am." It's actually making you more independent because you're not having to ask those people in your life, right?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. And that's a really good point. That's where majority of the strain comes from between partners or family members and stuff like that. Yeah.
Will Butler:
Well, it's cool to hear that you still have to push yourself and I think probably a lot of people look up to you, but it's cool to hear that you still push yourself every day to make sure that you're keeping honest about what you can and can't do.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. We're trying to heal people. Like you said, some people look up to me and it's like, man, I'm not any different. There's days when I'm bummed out and I'm questioning myself and yeah. All that stuff for sure. I still feel self-conscious about my blindness and stuff like that. Yeah. That still happens for sure.
Will Butler:
So, let's go back because you weren't always blind and you probably weren't always a skater as far as I know. But you're born in East Detroit. What was childhood like?
Dan Mancina:
Super fun. I grew up with three older brothers, learned what not to do from them. I was always very easy going, living in the moment kind of free spirit kid, for sure. Just trying to have fun and stuff like that. And definitely carry that onto up to middle school, high school.
Will Butler:
Do any of your siblings have RP?
Dan Mancina:
Two do. One has been diagnosed, one has not. But, I mean, it's got to be RP. He doesn't drive anymore and stuff like that. And then one of the other brothers has a great eyesight, better than 2020, actually.
Will Butler:
Oh, that's weird. You got like one brother with perfect eyes.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. I have RPX, retinitis pigmentosa attached to the X chromosome. So when my mother had kids, in that case, if she had a son, it was a 50% chance that they had it. Three of us got it, one didn't.
Will Butler:
Interesting. It's such a complicated, but really interesting family dynamic when you have a number of siblings with the same degenerative eye condition. We've heard other guests talk about it. Some guests are really glad because their siblings got to pave the way for them, but others it's like they don't experience the blindness until much later. It can really be a toss up.
Dan Mancina:
I'm the youngest and the one who was affected by it first. I was legally blind before any of them really, I think, got diagnosed or even had any major symptoms. So yeah, I've kind of had to be the one who leads the way. My mom's talked about that quite a bit and, "You're the one leading the way." And it's like, "What?" Yeah. I mean, they're doing all right though. Yep.
Will Butler:
What's your mom's feeling about it? She doesn't have RP, does she?
Dan Mancina:
No symptoms of it, right? She's obviously guilt as a mother, feels guilty in the beginning. She's just always concerned. She still is not a full believer in, I don't think in my career as a skateboarder and stuff like that, but always pushed me to go to school and her only concern was, "Find something that you can do as a blind person." And all that stuff. So a little holds on to some of those misperceptions, I think. But I think it all comes from just her concern of, her not being able to help me in some ways and she's concerned when she passes on that, "Oh, you just got to be able to support yourself." Stuff like that. So...
Will Butler:
Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like a normal worried mother.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. I mean, outside of that, she doesn't really give me any excuses. She's told me many of times to quit being such a little baby, we'll say is eminent version. Yeah. So...
Will Butler:
That's good. She's got some tough love for you too.
Dan Mancina:
She does. And I grew up with great friends too, who never let me use my blindness as anything other than an excuse for something. So don't let me use it as an excuse. I got lucky, man. I got lucky to have a great family and friends who pushed me for sure. Didn't really expect anything else from me. So I couldn't expect anything else for myself.
Will Butler:
So when you were in middle school and high school, was the blindness showing at all or was it still pretty dormant?
Dan Mancina:
No, the first thing I can really remember of anything would be high school, maybe early high school and just some stuff at night. Walking home in the dark from my friend's house, maybe tripping over something. But nothing that ever... I didn't get diagnosed until I was 13. So I didn't find out I had RP until then. Went into a routine eye exam to get my glasses for the year. And the optometrist noticed something a little off and got sent to a couple of specialists and then told I had this hereditary disease. So that's when it was on my radar, but never really affected me until about early mid 20s when I stopped driving at night, stuff like that. But yeah, childhood was really mellow. A normal childhood, blindness wasn't even on my radar. I never knew a blind person, never thought about it, stuff like that. Yeah.
Will Butler:
Do you have any memories from before your 20s of encountering a blind person, even just somebody on the street? Had you ever even seen a blind person before? And what was your impression?
Dan Mancina:
That's a great question. I think about this all the time and I-
Will Butler:
Me too.
Dan Mancina:
I don't think I really have. Nothing that would ever stick out. I mean, I'm sure I had to have seen a white... I know what a white cane is. Everyone knows what a white cane is, but it's like, how often do you really see that? Unless you're looking for it. You had no memories, you know?
Will Butler:
Yeah, isn't that weird?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. It is really weird. It's crazy going into the mind world and...
Will Butler:
I think it's good for us to remember that though, because when we walk into a room, we are that blank slate for people and people are like, they have nothing or they have one or two very strong stereotypes that they assume must not be true, right? Or we have the movie Ray or... A very few little things.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. You always hear people reference the common things, you know what I mean? Exactly like you said. Ray or something like that. That's one of the funnest things for me is that first impression, especially when I'm out in the street skating and people see me and they're just like, "What?" That's definitely one of the funner things to do. Sometimes a little too distracting for myself, but always good to change that. So it's good to be out as much as we can, help change that perspective.
Will Butler:
Absolutely. So you get into your 20s and you start really losing some vision, but from what I've understand, it was still a pretty bumpy road. It's not like you just wake up one day and you go, "Okay, I'm blind." And adjust. It's more complicated than that, right?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. In some ways. Pretty similar to how you just said it actually.
Will Butler:
Well, I guess for our piece, sometimes you do just wake up more blind, right?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah, exactly. The first time I lost a big chunk of vision, I was working in a kitchen, a busy restaurant in the back, washing dishes. And I was going to school to finish an aviation management. I wanted to work somewhere in the airport or something like that. That's when I had a shift in my life and my actual lifestyle and what I did and what I couldn't do. And I went from driving to riding my bike to just walking places when I would even ride my bike. And then I had this big vision loss where I wouldn't even leave the house or couldn't walk around the block without even a human guide or something like that. Big shift within a year, two years.
Dan Mancina:
Lost that job at the restaurant and then, I think it was right at the end of that degree. I finished that degree one last semester at a community college here. And they didn't have that many services for the blind. I wasn't even aware of what was available to me as a blind person, any help or anything. So I'm thrown into this world, scrambling and I started thinking, "Okay, what does a blind person do? What could a blind person do as a job?" And I always thought about massage. And then I thought, that'd be good, working with my hands so I'll feel. So I went into massage therapy. I started that program finished that. I had some actually orientation mobility training through Leader Dogs for the Blind out here in Rochester, Michigan, which was a huge, just an insane life changer right there, right?
Will Butler:
Really.
Dan Mancina:
Oh, yeah. That was definitely a turning point in my life for sure. It was, number one, it's being an environment that recognized what blindness was and what you were capable of. Everything from the way the room was set up, where I stayed, to the way people talk to you, treated you, guided you, opened my eyes up to a lot of things and helped push me as a vision impaired person for sure. And become more independent. And I mean, even noticeably to my whole family. My mother even said, a noticeable change in everything from my attitude to my confidence, having that empowerment of the white cane. And that white cane has become everything to me. From my skating to everything. So that was huge.
Dan Mancina:
And then I was introduced to even just the blind world a little bit more, and these other programs and these other fields within blindness. Orientation mobility, vision, rehabilitation, therapy, counseling, stuff like that. And I was like, "Man, that seems like a pretty cool field. I want to get into one of those." I did massage for about a year. I worked and lived... I always maintained living independently on my own, going through my stuff. I never really considered having to move back home or anything like that because I was always good on the independent living side of things. So I looked into vision rehab teaching, right? Teaching these independent living skills and stuff like that. I decided to go to school for that.
Dan Mancina:
So I shifted gears for the third time, I believe. No, it'll be the fourth time. I actually started as a TVI, teacher of the visually impaired at Eastern University here in Michigan. Man, when I was doing that, they dropped the program in my second semester that I was in school.
Will Butler:
Wow. Defunded or something?
Dan Mancina:
They didn't have enough people joining the program to make it worth it. And the lady who was running it, had some medical issues and she didn't want to do it. And this whole thing, I'm like, "What is going on?" I just found out what I wanted to do. And I started doing a little more research and talking with some people and my own instructor. And that's actually when I fell in love with VRT, Vision rehab teaching. So finished my undergrad under psychology. Quickly shift gears like, I've got to finish my undergrad so I can get my masters. Finished in psychology and applied to Western Michigan, which I think it is the best vision rehab teaching schools in the world, luckily right here in Michigan. But I did have to move. I had to move from my hometown and live there for a year and pretty much put my whole life on pause.
Dan Mancina:
At this point, I mean, I'm also juggling skateboarding, right? I'm starting to get recognized, I guess you could say. And getting some opportunities in skating and I had to pass on some cool travel and stuff like that, that I did not want to do.
Will Butler:
Right. This must have been 2017 or something?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. This is last year. I finished my internship about a year ago and maybe it will be one year ago today. So, yeah. But what an amazing program, group of people and finished that degree. I'm a CVRT as well. Cool field. And that's where actually Be My Eyes comes in a little bit.
Will Butler:
I just think that that's so cool that you also have a master's degree in vision rehabilitation therapy. In addition to this whole budding skating career, very few people probably realize that.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. It was not fun. Honestly, it did a lot for my mother. She said, "Education is so strong and skateboarding doesn't last forever for the majority of skaters." So it's good to have that. And I mean, what a fun field. It's such a relaxed environment in most of the places like visiting Lighthouse and SF. Just a cool place to work man and helping people and doing what I can for the community that obviously means a lot to me, the visually impaired blind community.
Will Butler:
I think it also gives you a whole level of qualification to be skating as well in a weird way. Because I think a lot of people probably to be honest, see what you're doing and are like, "That's dangerous." Or, "That guy is putting other blind people at risk by doing what he's doing." But the fact that you also have a master's degree in all of the skills that we teach blind people in order to be safe, really lends a lot of credibility to your sport.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. It's not as crazy as people think it is. You stay within your boundaries and you have fun. And man, it really isn't that sketchy, cruising around. I never thought about... You said people think I'm putting blind people at risk, which never crossed my mind.
Will Butler:
I mean, there's the worried mothers out there who have the blind kids who are like, "I hope my kid never sees this video."
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. I'm sure as you've seen that can be the biggest barrier, is the family and friends. Yeah.
Will Butler:
Yeah. In order to dispel the myths about safety and all this stuff, I think it would be cool to hear a little bit about the real mechanics of, how does the dude skateboard? And maybe in order to do that, you could talk a little bit about coming off of snowboarding and these other things like, how you picked up the board again as a blind person and thought, "This might work."
Dan Mancina:
Man, I've been skating... I'm trying to think. It was going to be four, almost five years now of skating as a visually impaired person and really just about a year and a half of skating as someone who's totally blind, which is a pretty big distinction actually going from probably sighted to total. In the beginning, I was able to use different environment. Like skating on a tennis court, I could see the white line. [inaudible 00:23:19] have really good contrast with the outlines of the court. So I was able to use things like that as a guide to get me to objects. And then as I mentioned my white cane, right? Has become just my tool in everyday life in skating. Using that as really the tool where I can find my objects with, whether it's a gap, a drop-off, ledge, anything like that. And that's what gives me the reassurance of where something is and where I am at in reference to it and stuff like that.
Dan Mancina:
And then going into total blind skateboarding, I didn't know myself I was going to be able to skate at the same level or be able to do the same things that I could with that little bit of sight. And I had to change things around a little bit. So using my cane is still a huge part in finding an object. For instance, when I skate a ledge, it's finding the object with my cane and then it's touching it with my hand. And when I get that second contact with my hand is really the feedback that is the most crucial and lets me know exactly where I am and I can be a lot more precise with what I'm doing. So I can be a little more technical with my skating.
Dan Mancina:
And then using anything in the environment that I can, as far as using a starting point, whether it's a crack on the ground, okay, I'm going to start at this same spot every time, because that's really important. Starting in the same position, getting my speed down and knowing the right time that I'm going to hit the obstacle is super crucial. So combining those things together, I've found that I've surpassed my ability even as a partially sighted skateboarder, as a totally blind skateboarder now.
Will Butler:
Seriously?
Dan Mancina:
It's been crazy. I mean-
Will Butler:
Wow.
Dan Mancina:
...I know that I can go even further and I know that a younger man who's lost their sight could go even further than I can.
Will Butler:
I think that's such an amazing... It's a metaphor for what we all go through as people who are clinging onto this little bit of vision that we have and treating it like it's the most valuable thing in the world and it's going to be the key to what enables us to be excellent. But the truth of the matter is, you were not killing it as Dan the blind skateboarder until really you were fully blind, right?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. It was just pretty much when I really started coming in and it was stressful at that time because when I started being recognized is when I lost the remaining of my vision, that last little bit.
Will Butler:
Oh, did it happen right after the recognition came?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. Pretty much. And I'm like, "Man, am I going to be able to keep going?"
Will Butler:
That's brutal.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah, it was pretty scary for sure in that side of things, but honestly, I never held on to my remaining vision. I really hated going to the doctors and I got the injections in my eyes every month and the laser treatments.
Will Butler:
I got those. Yeah, me too. All that.
Dan Mancina:
And I remember telling the doctor even at one point, "We're prolonging the inevitable right now. I think I'd be better off just losing the rest of my vision and adapting when I'm younger than waiting another five years, who knows 10 years and then I'm older and it's going to be harder for me to adapt." That was my mindset at that point.
Will Butler:
This is a bit of a sidetrack, but can you just explain to people this thing about the injections? Because so many people go through this and are kind of convinced to go through this. I'm not saying you shouldn't go through it, but I went through it and... Do you mind explaining to people what this is and what it's like?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. So definitely different for each person and each disorder, right?
Will Butler:
Yeah.
Dan Mancina:
I got mine because on top of my RP, I have coats disorder, which is where I got my rapid vision loss. And those are when the blood vessels in your eyes rupture and that blood covers the retina and you're unable to see. And there's no reversing that. They can't just take it out or anything like that. So this was happening and these injections, what they do, it's called a [inaudible 00:27:15] and it's really a cancer medication. But what it does is that, these blood vessels are very immature because there are new blood vessels in your eye and immature blood vessels can leak. So they suppress these blood vessels and keep them from really leaking and stuff like that.
Dan Mancina:
So in my case, with this disorder, it did help and prolong the time that I had with vision. So I definitely want to make that clear, right? It' not a bad thing, but I mean, as far as the-
Will Butler:
Quality of life.
Dan Mancina:
...quality of life and just the dreading going, because when I would get my injection, it wouldn't be that bad, but it would be the following 24 hours. I couldn't open my eye at all. And it's constantly watering and it's just not fun, you can't touch your face for four days. You don't want to get infected. And when I had it, I had to do drops every three hours.
Will Butler:
Right. You risk infection every time get it. I went through this with, it was steroid and same exact thing, prolonged vision. And again, I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but I'm just trying to point out the lengths that we go to and the pain we put ourselves through in order to cling onto some marginal gains when it comes to our vision. We really value eyesight at such an incredibly high level.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. I had other surgeries too. Just the stress of getting put under and going into surgery to keep the remaining vision. And it's like you said, it's a weird thing.
Will Butler:
Well, I didn't mean to drag up old stuff. We typically don't talk that much about medical stuff on the show, but we have to be real with people because so many listeners are going through this right now. I think they got to know, you have options, you are your own person, you can make your own decisions. Doctors can give great advice and then it's up to you to make your choices.
Dan Mancina:
Exactly. Yeah.
Will Butler:
So you go almost completely blind or you have this massive vision loss, right as you're kind of peaking in terms of notoriety and you've got your master's degree or you're almost there.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. I'm in the middle of my master's at this point, pretty much.
Will Butler:
You wrap up your masters. Is there a montage in this movie where you go to bootcamp and all your skills get 10 times better? Or was it just a process?
Dan Mancina:
Finding that method of using my hand changed the whole game for me. And that came from, I filmed an edit of skateboarding at a skate park I would always go to. I'd come home for some weekends and then home for the holidays. And I wanted to finish this within the month of December, right? Kind of my window and it was posted on a... It's actually online [inaudible 00:29:56].
Will Butler:
Yeah. I remember that one.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. So that was the first time I filmed and put anything out as a total blind skater. And that was really motivating to me. Even in the beginning skating, I didn't even want to use my cane because I thought it would be weird, self-conscious about it. And then when I started using my hand, I felt the same way. Like, man, I don't want to be touching. It must look weird to me touching the object and I don't have to crouch down super far and it's just weird. I didn't want to do it. But both of those things it became now it's just natural and I guess it adds something to my skating, whether people think it's good or bad, it definitely adds something. So...
Will Butler:
So explain again what it looks like. You walk into the park and you find, let's say, you find like a stair or something or like a grind or something like that or... I don't know. What do you do? What does it look like?
Dan Mancina:
My hand method or just in general?
Will Butler:
Yeah, the whole method. If someone's watching from 30 feet away, this blind guy, what does it look like? Paint a picture.
Dan Mancina:
Most likely you'll see me either dropped off from Uber ride or my girlfriend. I'll probably be searching around to find the opening gate, right?
Will Butler:
I love this scene.
Dan Mancina:
Not knowing if the driver dropped me. I always tell the driver to take me at this certain entrance, but people obviously know not always the way it goes. So making sure I'm at the right entrance, walking to the park, do a little bit of stretching, walk down and usually start skating a ledge at my local park I go to. So I'll walk my way to the ledge, guiding my way, I have my little path I take every time and then always checking the environment. I remember one year there was this bike rack that they brought in. Skateboarders are always adding new stuff and trash cans or some random piece of metal and throwing it in the middle of the park. So I always have to make sure that my area is clear. So you'll see me just sweeping my cane, walking it out, the main area that I'll be skating.
Dan Mancina:
I'll walk it all out. Probably usually a little bit more stretching at that point. And then it's just starting with the most basic trick that you can think of, as far as just dropping off of the ledge and just [inaudible 00:32:05] onto the ledge and getting my body warmed up, getting used to the ledge where I'm at. And if there's other skateboarders there, getting used to what patterns they're skating, right? Is this guy going to be flying pack? When I hear him dropping on the quarter pipe behind me, is he always make his way right past me? Or is he taking a different line? And just getting more comfortable with each session. So...
Will Butler:
Skateboards are really loud. So they must be pretty easy to echo locate.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. Your average street board, for sure. The dangerous things are bikers and then scooter kids. Scooter kids are archnemesis for sure.
Will Butler:
Oh, because they're at the park still and they're-
Dan Mancina:
They're small. They're usually younger, they don't have any skate park etiquette and they're silent. So it's this horrible combination.
Will Butler:
Wow. What about balance? Is it difficult to balance? A lot of people find it difficult to balance with their eyes closed, but I think that's a misconception that blind people have balance issues.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. I found that to be a misconception. I never really had any issues. I get maybe a little issues when it comes to being really technical and balancing certain ways on my board, when I'm actually in the middle of a trick. Hard to reference where the drop is or where I'm at in time and space when I'm moving at a faster speed, but nothing like I'm standing on my board and I feel wobbly or anything like that.
Will Butler:
Right.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. It's rare when I feel that. It's very unique or certain tricks where that actually becomes a factor when you're sliding or grinding something and you don't have any real... Because most of the time I have the reference of my board and my feet, but when I'm grinding or something, I can lose that reference. And then, that's where people who have vision would use their visual ability to know where they're at in time and space. So...
Will Butler:
It all just strikes me that a skateboard is, at least when you're moving from A to B and you're not doing a trick, it's always connected to the ground, which for blind people is kind of a plus, right? Because you have a sense of the terrain.
Dan Mancina:
Oh, yeah. Where it gets difficult is when you start doing gaps. You're going from a higher position and you're dropping down and over something. So getting the timing down with that drop is difficult in the beginning, especially when you go to a new spot, a new gap, and you got to jump down for the first time is stressful, I guess, best [inaudible 00:34:34]. And then when it's a really smooth environment and there aren't obstacles all around you. So if you have a really long distance from point A to point B and there's nothing in the middle between those things that you can touch or feel or use as a reference, it's impossible-
Will Butler:
You lose touch.
Dan Mancina:
...to go into a straight line. And then that's where you can use some audio cues, like a beeper or something like that, that can actually help in cases like that. But yeah, that's the worst thing is it's just all flat ground with nothing is try to go in a straight line. It's impossible.
Will Butler:
It's like walking through an airport with an incredibly polished floor and you're just like, "Where am I?"
Dan Mancina:
And just hearing the speakers and echoes and you're floating in space, man.
Will Butler:
Yeah. Talk a little bit... I mean, what about this whole thing about safety and why is it less sketchy than people might think?
Dan Mancina:
People's ideas of skateboarding are just not necessarily the most positive or the best. You see injuries are more common in playing football and stuff like that. When you start out, it's not like your first time on a skateboard, you're going to go jump down a set of stairs. You learn in increments kind of. You stay within your ability. It's a slow progression. You start just standing on the board and then just rolling and then [inaudible 00:35:51] and before you even do anything, that's really super, super dangerous. And you get hurt. It is a sport or, I hate to call it a sport, but it is an activity where unless you're willing to take the punishment. It's hard to progress past a certain point because you're going to take some slams and stuff like that. But there's plenty of people who just keep it mellow and have just as much fun and cruiser out and have fun. And aren't breaking themselves off all the time.
Will Butler:
Well, and to put it a little bit maybe bluntly or radically, blind people have the same right to get hurt that sighted people do. To try risky maneuvers. Just because we're blind doesn't mean we can't try something risky.
Dan Mancina:
I think about a vision impaired kid and a sighted kid. In the beginning of my sight loss. I used to think that those were two different things, but not anymore. There's vision impaired kids who are going to want to play video games, who are going to want to skateboard and some of them are not going to want to do any of those things. Having the visual impairment doesn't change who you are or what you want to do in life. It's just going to be ingrained in your personality and stuff like that. So you have every right to have those feelings to want to do something and to do them and to chase them and not let your visual impairment be the dictation of your life and the deciding factor of what you should and shouldn't do. That should only come from within your own needs and wants, right? Your own desires.
Will Butler:
Where do you draw the line? And what are the things you don't do?
Dan Mancina:
I don't mess around with transition too much. Mini ramps, half pipes, what else? I mean, hand rails, something that I've been wanting to get into. The real technical parts of that, approaching the hand rail and stuff like that are really hard. That's a goal of mine that I haven't done. And actually the guy I talked about, Justin Bishop, he's been trying to skate this rail and he's been battling it for months. And we've been going back and forth about how he does it and idea. So that's the line right now that I'm trying to get to at least. I mean, yeah. But like I said earlier, man, I know that I could do so much more if I just had the time or I often think, "Man, I wish I would have gone blind when I was 15." I would have been more willing to jump down things and just really go for it. I'm about to be 33 in few weeks and yeah, it's not as easy as it used to be for sure.
Will Butler:
But you're still fairly new to the blind skating thing. You're only really a year and a half in, right?
Dan Mancina:
I still feel brand new to it. Yeah.
Will Butler:
Yeah. So you're going to progress and I'm sure of it. Skateboarding is so cool because you always have younger generations pushing the limits, right? So it sounds like you know some younger bind skaters who are also doing that?
Dan Mancina:
Well, the guy, Justin, I think he's similar age to me, a little younger, but pretty much the same age. But there are family members reach out of little guy: two years old, three years old, five years old, starting to cruise around and they're blind. So there's going to be a whole generation.
Will Butler:
Wow! Oh my God. Those kids are going to be so sick.
Dan Mancina:
Oh, yeah. And be cool. I don't know if it's just because I've been more involved in the community within the last five, six years, but it feels like people are becoming more and more independent each day and realizing like... Look at all these examples of people out there doing what they want to do. And it seems to be just progressing our community in every avenue, right? As far as technology and just the average person. Even getting a great career or a job, right? Living independently and having a life, family and stuff like that. It seems to be growing in my eyes.
Will Butler:
As far as resources for visually impaired folks who want to either skate or do other active activities, do you have any thoughts on where people can go for that and how they can be supported in that?
Dan Mancina:
Man, there's a lot of... I think it kind of varies state to state, right? There's a million programs. I mean, I think if you're new, right? Newly into the blind world, and if you're thrown into it I was, it's a little bit different than someone who was raised as a vision impaired toddler or child, and grew up within this kind of system, right? And they've had TBIs and they've had [inaudible 00:40:04] and stuff like that. But I think the first step is getting as much independence as you can, right? And getting, like I said, that orientation mobility training I got, changed my life. That was the first step for me.
Dan Mancina:
So as far as just getting the confidence and then being more independent and stuff like that. A simple Google search, right? Just to figure out what's in your local community for whatever it is you want to do. There's camps, sport camps. Skateboarding is, as far as sports go is about as accessible as it can be. All you need is a skateboard. You [inaudible 00:40:36] the helmet and be getting whatever you want. Pads, you can get all suited up if you want it to. And you can just find a really nice open parking lot. Then you can start doing that. Anyone can do it.
Will Butler:
What about accessibility of parks though? Because I know that's something you're passionate about. I want to hear a little bit about pushing forward and your foundation as well, but what makes an escape park accessible?
Dan Mancina:
I'd say the first thing is going to be similar to any other environment as far as transportation, where the park is located and then getting into the actual, the way that the park is designed. I would say 99% of the skate parks I go to could have very simple changes that could make it more accessible, even just accessible in general and just for a better environment for a vision impaired person or even somebody in a wheelchair, right? WCMX is another huge growing community and sport. So yeah, it's really about, I think the size of the objects is really crucial. So if it's ledge or even a bench that you're holding onto and grind or slide, the length of that is huge.
Dan Mancina:
Most parks I go to it could just be like a little box that's like six feet and it's not that fun. It's hard for me to start. And then by the time I find out where I'm at, touch the ledge and figure it out, I'm pretty much already past it. So you got elongate things. And that goes for everything, whether it's a rail, a ledge, a staircase, quarter pipe, anything should just be extended so that a vision impaired skateboarder can have the time to figure out where they're at in time and space and be able to skate it, right?
Dan Mancina:
I think it's a little bit more spread out, maybe even tactile ground, right? That could even either be removable if other skateboarders don't want it. Or if you're a vision impaired person, you can set it up and have it on the ground so you know, "Oh, okay. If I hit this rumble strip, I better stop." I'm going to run into a hazardous thing." Stuff like that. So those are the basic things.
Will Butler:
Those sound like things that would help out lots of different types of skaters even consciously or subconsciously.
Dan Mancina:
There's nothing that a normal skater would... People would love that. It wouldn't be anything, anything horrible or change anything to a sighted person or whatever, any kind of rider, right?
Will Butler:
Yeah. That's really interesting, but I'm sure a lot of these skate parks are often put together on a tight budget and are kind of junky and all.
Dan Mancina:
And it's not even on the radar of the average community. People who are building these parks so there's usually small communities and within a city, sometimes run by the local skate shop and there's a local group of skaters. They don't even think about blindness or a wheelchair. It's just not even on their mind.
Will Butler:
Until it happens to them.
Dan Mancina:
It's like we were talking about earlier, like when I was sighted, I never saw a blind person or thought about it. So, yeah. And I hope to help to change that. I have a non-profit called Keep Pushing that's aimed around, right? Skate park design and trying to get the first accessible park built. Talking with some guys actually in Florida, who are going to really push to hopefully get an accessible park built there as well. So there's actually a cool survey going around right now online as well for adapted skaters to figure out what would they like to see in the adaptive park. So it's being talked about more and more.
Will Butler:
I want to ask you about your connection to a guy whose name probably all of our listeners will know, Mr. Tony Hawk.
Dan Mancina:
The birdman.
Will Butler:
What's that?
Dan Mancina:
The birdman, yes, yes.
Will Butler:
The Birdman. When did you meet Tony Hawk? What's that relationship like? And what's he been able to do for you?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah, it's not like a strong, we're not like friends or anything like that. I've met him a handful of times. The first time was in Michigan, he has some family here. I think his wife is from Michigan, but he would come out and he'd do some skateboard events. He had a park that was put up and built downtown to try and first time I met him I got to roll around the park and skate and he posted one of my videos and tripled my Instagram followers within a day. It's crazy. I'm very grateful for him and very stoked on him.
Dan Mancina:
And then I talk with the Tony Hawk Foundation, which is aimed around helping get skate parks built, right? They help people with resources and data and exactly what you need to get a park built in your local community. It's an amazing resource. As well as, sometimes they do funding too. They've built, I mean, parks all around the world. I think they're building at least two more in Michigan alone this year. I have a little tie to that organization, as far as, I've done some just podcasts and donated my time and stuff like that. And they were the first ones to post one of my videos way long ago and helped to put me on the map and stuff like that. So Tony Hawk is just an amazing dude who has done, I think more for skateboarding than anyone has.
Will Butler:
Yeah.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah, it cool.
Will Butler:
Well, you got the birdman bump.
Dan Mancina:
The birdman bump... Yeah.
Will Butler:
I was talking with Tony Hawk, not something I do often I assure you. Just 10 days ago and he brought you up, which is why I asked.
Dan Mancina:
Oh, you're the one running. It was him and a chef, right?
Will Butler:
Yeah.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. I watched that. That was cool. That was [inaudible 00:45:35].
Will Butler:
Yeah, that was me.
Dan Mancina:
So stoked when I heard my name and was like, "Yeah!"
Will Butler:
I don't know if we should include this in the podcast or not. He told me that he told you in Greyhound, you guys were talking about him coming to Detroit and saying if they got a sponsor on it that you would drop in on vert.
Dan Mancina:
Yes. I'm willing. I'm not opposed to it. I'd be scared out of my wits, but man.
Will Butler:
It seems irresponsible to put Dan Mancina's life at risk.
Dan Mancina:
Well, if I got the birdman next to me, I feel pretty good about where I am and the risk factor, right? And just knowing where I am on the ramp. So...
Will Butler:
For the record, he's still all about it and just about collaborating in general. So I'd love to see more of that happen.
Dan Mancina:
He's the best man. He's the best.
Will Butler:
He's such a good guy.
Dan Mancina:
Such a good guy. And I hate even bothering him or hit him up because he's busy, man. He's an international celebrity man.
Will Butler:
Yeah. And all the new stuff coming this year with the new game and the documentary and... It's going to be a big year for Tony Hawk for sure.
Dan Mancina:
So cool. He deserves it all, man. I'm so glad.
Will Butler:
Yeah. Other idols you've been able to meet skating? Obviously, you got your teams now and whatnot, but what have been some highlights?
Dan Mancina:
All the teams that I ride for. I mean, there's amazing skaters that I grew up watching and just even the current people who are just the best skateboarders in the world really. And then, the people who run those teams. A guy named Jim Thiebaud, right? Part of Real skateboards. Meeting him was a huge change in my life and helped me really get focused and really believe in myself. I was like, "Man, I might actually be able to do this." I didn't think it would be really possible. He helped push me there. And then people like Paul Shier from Adidas, my TM for Adidas and those people who just believed in me, right? Before I really was a 100% believing in myself. Huge.
Dan Mancina:
And then just meeting a great group of skaters in Michigan because most people I grew up with don't skate anymore and having my filmer Steve [inaudible 00:47:41] who pretty much films, all my stuff here in Michigan. That's one of my most important things and just become such a good friend and so cool, man. It's like I said, the 180 that my life has done in the last two years is crazy. I think about it sometimes and I just get giddy and I can't believe I'm where I'm at and grateful, excited, and just trying to enjoy it. It's hard to enjoy it when you're in the moment but I try to just absorb it off and keep it going for as long as I can.
Will Butler:
No, I think it's awesome that you're not only achieving at that level, but tied in with the community too. You know about vision rehab, you know about that tough transition that so many of us have had to make. We're behind you 100%.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. And Real and Adidas have been just as great too They've done the braille board through Real. Fully raised a braille on the board, stuff like that. Adidas has thrown multiple events of... We had one in LA last April and we met up with a group of vision impaired kids and got them hooked up with, they all got a full, complete board with the braille board and pair of Adidas shoes at the skate park and they got the roll around and they got to meet all these crazy pro skaters. They probably don't even know who they were, helping them out. And it's just cool, man. The companies I'm with, I'm so lucky to be with these companies because they're willing to pretty much do and help in a way that I want to. So it couldn't be any better.
Will Butler:
Any other accessibility barriers that are still fairly ominous in this space right now. I know that digitally, there's still so many digital products that are turned out, that are inaccessible. Anything you can think of or things that you just in general want to see changed?
Dan Mancina:
Like I said, digital is a big one for sure. Accessibility, to just all the content in the world that people can easily find and look at. And then, I mean, you can name any place, anything, and you could find a better way to do it for sure as far as accessibility. Travel is big, airports, making gate changes, it's not always fun. And that's the big thing. Like I said, we could pretty much say anything and any company or anything can always improve.
Will Butler:
What about watching skate videos? I mean, that's the number one way people learn how to skate, right? When you're not in the park is like, how can a visually impaired or blind kid soak in all that, become that sponge for information the way that... How do we confront that one? Is audio described skating a thing?
Dan Mancina:
You can do it. The guy I just spoke about, Justin Bishop, he does a really good job on his Instagram. I'm very poor at it. He has all the captions for everything. You could do it, man. The only problem is the fast paced nature of a skateboard video, right? Some of them are... There's every three seconds, every four seconds, there's a new clip, a new trick that would have to be described within that timeframe. That would be the challenge.
Will Butler:
Right. You have to understand what the trick name refers to. That's the whole point of having a name for it is just shorthand, right?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. Learning that and there aren't any, I think Thrasher magazine, or you can do an online subscription, be able to read articles that way. But as far as pictures and stuff like that, there's no descriptions or stuff like that.
Will Butler:
How many tricks do you think there are?
Dan Mancina:
Unlimited. It's like infinite combinations and-
Will Butler:
But like ones that 90% of people know.
Dan Mancina:
There are still-
Will Butler:
Hundreds, thousands?
Dan Mancina:
100 plus. For sure. The basic.
Will Butler:
Because I'm just thinking like it could be cool if someone did an audio described series where they break down and give visual descriptions for the main tricks.
Dan Mancina:
You know what? That sounds like a great podcast I might start. It sounds awesome.
Will Butler:
Oh dude, that would be amazing. If you got the top skaters.
Dan Mancina:
Yep.
Will Butler:
Dude, Be My Eyes would be all about that.
Dan Mancina:
That'd be cool. That'd be fun. I'm more than down because I've been thinking about that and I've always wanted to see a full braille issue of Thrasher magazine.
Will Butler:
Oh, yeah.
Dan Mancina:
All these things I've wanted. I know Real, my sponsor, looked into doing an ad that was in braille, but-
Will Butler:
That would be awesome.
Dan Mancina:
...the price was insane, like an additional $10,000, something crazy like that. But, yeah. And to start audio describing videos. It can be done. For sure, it would be cool to sit down with somebody and just man, looking back, I wish I could go back when I had more vision to be able to just start audio describing videos in a way that I thought was cool. I'd have to sit down with somebody that I trust and in skateboarding and tell them what the trick is. And then I could put it in the best way I could for sure.
Will Butler:
I think the weird thing about it, just like your accessible skate park, is sighted skaters would listen to it and they would learn things that were like, "Oh, I was always just looking at it, but I didn't realize that they were doing that very subtle thing until they described it." Right?
Dan Mancina:
Right. It's weird because as far as describing like a trick, because not only are you describing the trick but you also have to recognize what obstacle they're doing it on because that's just as important. If it's this famous 20 stair, you got to say what trick it is and then where it's at. Two elements to it, right?
Will Butler:
Oh, that's interesting.
Dan Mancina:
Or if it's something sketchy, if they're doing and it might be a basic trick, but they're doing it next to a 50 foot drop-off on one side and they have to stay within this area. So things like that would be thought about to, yeah. That sounds fun. Man, I've been just counting the days between when I'm going to start doing a podcast because everyone and their mother has one, but I'm like, "Yeah." Especially during quarantine, I need to just do something new. Trying to find the right subject matter to do it on. I think I might just talk skating, everything. Yeah. Sounds fun.
Will Butler:
Yeah. Dude, people would love it. People would seriously love it.
Dan Mancina:
It'd be cool.
Will Butler:
Well, so much cool stuff to talk about. I hope we can have you back at some point when you're in the next big phase and-
Dan Mancina:
Anytime man. Always down. This app is amazing.
Will Butler:
Can't say enough good things about the brands that sponsor too. I just think that's such a victory to see you out there in the mainstream.
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. It's incredible and a dream come true for sure. And thank you guys, man. I mean, like I said, I use this app.
Will Butler:
You do?
Dan Mancina:
Yeah. I used it a lot when I was in my internship for VRT because I did [inaudible 00:54:14] working on traveling to people's homes and I'm by myself. So a lot of times I'm calling someone up with I'm helping label a microwave. Yeah. Anything like that. I use you guys a lot and it's just huge game changer.
Will Butler:
Dude, thank you. I'm glad to hear it.
Dan Mancina:
And in my daily life too. Yeah.
Will Butler:
We always try to remind people that it's unlimited, right? The whole point is that there are more volunteers than you could ever need.
Dan Mancina:
Yup. So cool. And I will check in on all the... I was just checking on before I was on this call, you guys have the story section, people haring their stories. I thought that was really cool. I love that.
Will Butler:
Some amazing stories in there. People who have met on the app and stuff. And the companies too. The companies is the big thing we're all about now. You can call Google, Microsoft, and get free tech support.
Dan Mancina:
That's going to be the game changer for you guys is integrating as many things like that as you can, right? I mean, it could be a one-stop shop for any kind of accessibility.
Will Butler:
Oh my God. I mean, and things that people didn't even imagine they could do. Vans has the design your own shoe thing, you know what I mean? How dope would it be if you would call it Vans and they could help you design the shoe or something.
Dan Mancina:
Or even just pick a shoe out with the proper description of what this thing looks like.
Will Butler:
What's up Adidas?
Dan Mancina:
I literally thought... Yep. I'm calling Adidas right now. Yeah.
Will Butler:
Yeah, right. Yeah. No, it's all good. There's so much opportunity in this field, which is why I love working in it. And I love, love, love that you recognize what a fun and challenging and enticing field it is to work in as well. So props to you dude.
Dan Mancina:
So cool. Thank you Will. You're the man, dude.
Will Butler:
You're the man, Dan. Thanks for stopping by at the Be My Eyes podcast and you'll be back on someday I'm sure.
Dan Mancina:
Yes. Later guys.
Will Butler:
All right, man. I'm going to stop my recording. Nailed it, dude. Thank you.
Will Butler:
Thanks for listening to the Be My Eyes podcast. Go to bemyeyes.com/envisioned to enter to win those glasses and check out our other podcasts while you're at it at bemyeyes.com/podcasts.
